Fundraising Radicals [00:00:03]:
Hello, and welcome to this new episode of the Fundraising Radicals Podcast. I'm your host, Craig Pollard. The Fundraising Radicals Podcast is about turning the world of fundraising upside down by sharing and exploring fresh global perspectives on nonprofit fundraising and leadership. These unscript conversations with friends and colleagues, old and new, ordinary and inspiring people who are fundraising and leading community projects, causes, charities and social enterprises in Asia, Africa, the Middle East and Latin America, and beyond the traditional boundaries of the nonprofit sector. I hope today's conversation challenges and inspires you to think differently about the world of fundraising and your place in it. I hope it helps you to reflect on your own fundraising practice and leadership. But now it's time for another dose of global fundraising ideas and inspiration. It has been my privilege to have known Steve Marigi for more than 15 years. We first met in Kibera, the informal settlement in Nairobi in early 2008, a few days after the post election violence. Steve grew up in rural Kenya. He studied journalism. He's worked across programs, communications and advocacy, building world class health programs and complex partnerships both at Amref Health Africa and at Primary Care International, where he's now the chief Executive. It has been my privilege to have walked alongside Steve on parts of his journey in global health and to have seen firsthand his impact in communities. We have also shared some adventures and hectic experiences together. I've always enjoyed Steve's ideas and his relentlessly practical focus on the things that matter right now, whether it's advocating for localizing and decolonizing development or how to build complex and long lasting corporate partnerships that are grounded in values and purpose. Now, this is not a short conversation, but I promise you, if you stick with this to the end, then you'll be rewarded with some really deep insight from Steve and creative tactics for localizing development and building exceptional corporate partnerships. And you'll also find out what the most important personal characteristics are, the ones that will deliver you fundraising and leadership success. So do stick with us. Welcome, Steve. It's wonderful to be talking with you today.
Steve Murigi [00:02:35]:
Thank you. Thank you, Craig. Asantehana having said, yeah, really, really pleasure to be here. Pleasure to be having a conversation with you, Craig. Yes, thank you.
Craig Pollard [00:02:43]:
I read I loved your recent profile article with PCI talking about you and your motivations for getting into global health and where you grew up, and I was just wondering if you would be happy to sort of share that about your background. Where did all this sort of passion and commitment for global health come from?
Steve Murigi [00:03:08]:
Yeah. Thanks, Craig. It's an interesting one. So when I look back at my own childhood and my upbringing, first of all, sometimes I surprise myself. I just surprised myself in terms of just the contribution I've been allowed to make within global health and the health of populations and communities. I just went back home recently and I went back to where I spent the first five, six years of my childhood with my grandmother. My mom gave birth to me when she was quite young, so she was barely out of high school. And at the time there was a lot of stigma around pregnancy, early pregnancy, pregnancy outside of marriage, so she had to leave. So she just completed her high school education, just barely. But she had to leave, right? She had to leave. She had to go to the city to fend for herself, find herself, and just sort of try and make things happen. So I lived with my grandmother for those initial five, six years. My grandmother had other children, so my mom was the firstborn, right? And there was ten of them. So these are my uncles and my aunts, but I really grew up knowing them as my brothers and sisters because they were all referring to my grandmother as mum, right? So I was doing the same, and we weren't materially well off. My grandmother had a bit of land, but we weren't materially well off. And I think so, a couple of things. I think the fact that there were many of us and we grew up, we were quite tight, we were tight knit family, I think that in a sense started to build this idea, not idea, but this value of fairness, that everybody needed a chance to have a go, that everybody needed to be listened to. Of course, there was the hierarchy of age, as any other family will have, but there was this sense that everybody has their story, everybody has their experience of the day, and everybody has their own sense of humor and understanding of the world. So I think that's where this idea of, oh yeah, my voice needs to be heard just as somebody else's voice needs to be heard. So I think that's the first thing. And I think purely from a health standpoint, this is where I also started to understand that if you didn't have resources or if you lived in a particular part of the village or the country, health wasn't something that was assured to you that if you were ill, there was no assurance that you would receive health care. There was no assurance that when you went to the health clinic that you would see a doctor on the day just because you ill and you needed it. There was no assurance that if you saw a doctor and they prescribed medication that you were assured of getting it. There was a lot of discomfort, but maybe an unnerving, I suppose, as a child, because you're looking for a lot of assurance and certainty. I think when that's not there, you start to think, oh, what happens if I'm ill? What happens if my grandmother is ill? What happens if my uncle is ill? And I remember a particular example where my uncle was really ill, right? So he had malaria, from what we understood after a few weeks. But he was horribly he was bad even, and he was much older than us, but the way he was behaving was different. And we were very scared. We were all terrified. And they had to take him to the clinic, but then there was no doctor since. They had to try and mobilize funds quite quickly to get onto public transportation to take into a health facility. And I just think that was sort of seared into my brain as I think as a kid, when things happen, sometimes they can appear very intense on reflection. So I suspect that's how my thirst, my yearning, my questions began, but I never really intentionally went out seeking global health. But of course, we can chat about that in a bit.
Craig Pollard [00:07:02]:
That's really interesting. Do you sort of look back where you are now as Chief Exec of Primary Care International Global ingo, sort of look back down the mountain at where you've come from and how does it feel being where you are today from that tough start?
Steve Murigi [00:07:22]:
Yeah, a few things. I think it's a mixed bag. I think in many ways it blows my mind. Right. In many ways, I'm highly, highly appreciative of the opportunity, the opportunity to even give it a go. Right. So I think in many ways, I look back and I just think, but.
Craig Pollard [00:07:43]:
You'Ve earned that as well, right?
Steve Murigi [00:07:45]:
Yes. If I put some humility to the side, I'd say, well, it's been a good 1718 years of being within global health, working in different countries, different continents, working with multiple partners. I think there's that. But I think if I just think about it as Steve the person, it's a long way from where I started. I think there's a huge sense of appreciation for the different opportunities, for the different people that I've met, because I think that's a significant part of it. So the relationships that I've built over time and the doors that have been opened and the fact that I've been allowed to be myself and to air some of these radical thoughts that I have. Right? So I think there's that and then there's the other side of it where sometimes I feel actually there's a lot of the conversations that I've had within Global Health and within the third Sector that actually I feel myself. Like many other people, have a lot to contribute purely just by virtue of understanding what the problem is and what might help resolve the issues. So there's a parliament adjusting. So, like yeah, actually, thank you so much for this opportunity because I do think I have something to say. But then the other side of that is just really glad to be here, glad for the support that I got for my grandmother, the support that I got for my mother, the people that I met, the few choices that were intentional, but also the choices that were purely circumstantial accidental. You would know this, craig right. We were in a program together. That was a complicated program. But you will remember that how I transitioned from the Amref office in Kenya to the Amref in Uganda was very the intention wasn't that I was going to be there for a long time, at least for the amount of time that I spent there at the end of that. But I look back and I think some of those decisions and opportunities have led me to where I am. But I suppose, like we say in Africa, it takes a village, right? I mean, it takes a village. And I'm just lucky that the village has been extremely kind to me. Right. So I have to find a way to give back.
Craig Pollard [00:10:00]:
You're very modest because I've seen you in action, Steve. You're a force. You're a force. You've worked with global, sort of holding your ground with massive global corporate partners like Accenture, GSK, Barclays Bank, these huge organizations. And I sort of seen you in action with those and sort of engaged on the program side with those. So I feel like it's completely earned and completely deserved. But you mentioned sort of your transition from Kenya to Uganda and with, I guess, the well known in its time project, the Katine Project was ahead of its time in some ways. This was a project that involved the Guardian Media Group of major UK newspaper, Barclays Bank and Amref program in Uganda that was really about sharing the sort of Walts and all view of international development for probably the first time. The level of coverage and the depth of coverage. What are your reflections from that? Because that was very progressive, sort of 15 plus years ago.
Steve Murigi [00:11:13]:
Yeah, you're absolutely spot on. It was extremely progressive. And I think for Amref, kudos to them for willing to expose themselves in that way. I think at the time, a lot of organizations, the culture was you get funding, you run a program, you tell the donor everything's gone great, and the little that hasn't gone great, I've got a plan to resolve it. Right. I suppose that was the culture when I was coming into development. At least that's what I found. And I think, as you say, it was progressive because this was the first opportunity and one of the first organizations to say, do you know what? We'll show you what development looks like. And it's not a straight line, and we're dealing with people, we're dealing with communities, and we will respond to their needs. And of course, the idea was to try and cover the multiple components of what a society needs clean water, education, health, an empowerment component, so an advocacy component, and livelihoods, which is how do you ensure that you can lean into what communities rely on for food and subsistence and trade, which absolutely phenomenal. Right. I think, looking back, we were still learning to be completely transparent. Right. Much as we were progressive, I think there was an element of there was still a bit of fear. I think it's not fear but more maybe misunderstanding. Right? So I think in terms of communication you had the Guardian coming in and there was still a sense that it's a partnership. So we will be having conversations. But of course at the time the Guardian wanted to still retain their integrity as the Guardian. Like we're here to also just demonstrate to everybody how development works and it took time for us to align those two worlds that it's just not a partnership in the way that we'd understood it before. But it was also really in many ways a development program, but also an experiment. It was a way to help everybody outside of development understand how things work. I think if I was reflecting on what we could do differently now and I think a lot has changed since, it would be just a lot more vulnerability, right? And we hear this often there's a lot of vulnerability being asked of from leaders. I think it applies to organization vulnerabilities. Nothing has to be perfect. You don't have to agree with your partners all the time. You don't have to have all the answers all the time. You're learning as much as some of them are learning. When you go into a community, you have ideas. There's a lot of borrowed ideas and concepts and principles and technical things that you can bring into a program. But it's still a new community if it's the first time you're there. Different cultures, different ways of doing things and that takes time. But I look back on it fondly. There's so much learning. There's so much learning. I think for me as a person coming into development in terms of how you manage relationships, how you build relationships, how you build trust, how you also do development in a very different way. I think what we were seeing with communities, there was a lot of agency because they knew that the program was being constantly evaluated and there were people paying attention to it. I look back on it and I think the community had a lot more agency compared to some of the other programs that I'd seen up to that point. They were able to come to the office, the resource center and say no, this is what we want you to do. With the money, we're able to reach the Guardian directly. We can write so and so and not force but have a conversation very quickly. I look on that quite fondly. What about you? How do you remember it?
Craig Pollard [00:15:18]:
I do have that fondness for it. I remember getting the phone call when the Guardian called us and it was just overwhelming because as Amref, we were relatively small in the UK and we were up against the Oxfams and the big players and to be awarded that and to have that opportunity was incredibly exciting but incredibly daunting. And I don't think we really understood the implications of inviting a group of journalists who are constantly seeking stories, they're seeking sort of conflict and difference. And then you bring Barclays, the Giant bank, into it, and then you bring an international development project and all of the challenges and politics and the logistics of delivering that, and then adding so many different cultures, and not just sort of sort of UK culture and Ugandan culture, but also corporate culture and media culture and nonprofit culture. And that was the complexity of that. And you were right at the sharp end of that sort of that sort of nexus where everybody all of that came together. So was that a sort of formative experience for you? And it didn't leave you thinking, there's no way I'm going to do this again? It sort of seemed to have spurred you on into much bigger things.
Steve Murigi [00:16:49]:
No, I mean, I think actually it was formative in a sense because my background at the time was journalism. Prior to that, I'd done social communication, I'd sort of stepped into development with a communication advocacy hat on anyway, right, and I had my own questions around what development looks like and what it could look like. So I think that was a massive opportunity for me to be involved in that conversation. I think the other thing that I understood quite quickly was just how different the personalities were. So there was never much as we look back on it now and say we were in a partnership with a guardian. How it felt when you were there was very much. We're in a partnership with so and so and so and so and so and so because they all took a very different view of development when they came in and some of them had a bit more understanding of the nuance, so it felt very easy to have conversations and some of them maybe not so much. And it felt that it was an opportunity for us to inform and educate, et cetera. So I think that was in many ways that was formative. The other element, of course, was just negotiating within the organization. Given my background, just to say well, actually, it's not enough to just say X, Y and Z to a journalist. It's not enough to say capacity building. It means absolutely nothing. It means a lot to us. But you need to really be clear on what makes sense to the person who's going to end up reading whatever's published. I think in many ways there was that, but for me it was also a different culture, right? So I'd moved from Nairobi at the time, I'd moved to Uganda and then straight to Soroti for many months. So there was also an element like, oh, I'm also in a different world and I'm building relationships there and I'm trying to cultivate trust from my colleagues who thought, this guy has come all the way from Kenya, et cetera. Our office was right next to the sub county government. So you're also building relationships with government at the same time. So you're balancing a lot of perspectives. And we're still delivering the work, which is really center to what Amriff does. So in many ways, you're trying not to be in the way as you also try and manage all, you know, balance all these other needs. So, yes, in many ways, I think you had to learn quickly. You had to learn quickly. I mean, you will remember this, I think also in terms of just internally, there wasn't a shared understanding of what needed to happen all the time. Right? So the UK office may have had different needs to what the Uganda office had at the time, of course.
Craig Pollard [00:19:43]:
And this was politically at the time in Amref, this was during a real shift. Decisions had been taken to really shift decision making, power, governance, finance, et cetera, from northern offices in the UK and Italy, in Canada and the US and Netherlands, to Nairobi. And that whole transition was happening at the time and was beginning those conversations. So there were layers of sort of internal complexity as well, which are always challenging to navigate. You sort of touched on your advocacy comms experience. I know a lot of people who'll be listening to this have a deep interest in advocacy. Many see advocacy as the future of the sector in terms of being able to leverage new resources and bring big, significant systemic change. Can you talk a little bit about your sort of comms advocacy and some of the key things you've learned over the years doing that?
Steve Murigi [00:20:50]:
Just also on the point that you just made around the shift that was happening with AMF, I think, again, just really credit to the organization, credit to The Guardian and credit to Barclays and really the wider partnership. I don't say that lightly. I say that with, as I say, hindsight 2020. Right. But you can start to see that that's where there was a shift in terms of shifting power. We keep saying shifting power, shifting power now, but that was a very practical way in which to demonstrate how you could do it. And it's about where the resources go. And I'm having more and more conversations now with partners and donors who keep asking the question, what does it look like? What does decolonization look like? What does shifting power look like? And I'm not to suggest that it was perfect at all, because it wasn't. But I think in many ways this idea that you can provide resources directly to the people that are most proximal to the problem is a really good place to start. And you can just start to see how that creates agency for those stakeholders and those participants, and their voice gets louder and they position themselves differently when they sit around the table. And that's what shifting power starts to look like to your question around advocacy. I completely agree. I mean, I think if you just look back on the last few years, the different movements, whether this is grassroots movements, whether they're sparked by a particular political issue or a particular incident, you have organizations that are literally built from an event and in six months to a year they are forced. They're a massive organization. So I do think there's something there around just how people with similar views and values can come together and rally behind an issue and really make some changes and make some political changes and mobilize enough resources to do some really good work. And whether you're talking about the BLM or whether you're talking about whatever movement you can think of, I think it's just demonstrative of you don't need a significant structure in the name of an organization, et cetera, et cetera, for you to build momentum around an issue. I think that's my biggest learning and I think the tools in the way that they are now, this idea that people have access to this, what you and I are doing to share their views and project that to the world and reach people who may have similar views and get on a phone and develop a group and a platform and just support an issue. I think that's super powerful. I was going to say we didn't have that. I was going to sound like a really old person say well, we didn't have that. But yeah, 15 years ago we didn't have that. And in many ways, if I reflect on it, I think I might have taken a different view. When I was thinking about some of the causes that I wanted to support, particularly health, 15 years ago with some of my colleagues that were also coming from the same background, which is communication and advocacy, we may have decided that, no, we don't need to join an organization and be bound by certain rules. We're just going to do this ourselves.
Craig Pollard [00:24:11]:
Yeah, but that's interesting. But that's really interesting, isn't it? What does this mean for the nonprofit structures? Because in many ways I see organizations and their ways of working, getting in the way of change. Some organizations are incredibly agile and great at it and facilitating it and losing control. What does it mean for the future of the sector and organizations?
Steve Murigi [00:24:39]:
Yeah, I think personally, as you say, completely agree. I think the structures will need review, right? I think a couple of things right. So I think sometimes the advocacy is happening within these very massive structures. I think that's what we've seen in the last couple of years, there's a lot of shift even happening within those organizations and those organizations are finding it difficult to stop that unlike before. So I think that's interesting that the change is sometimes being pushed internally. So I think that's quite positive. But I think more broadly, as you say organizations that will have the ability to be flexible and responsive to all these things will do great. Right? So if I think about the organization that I lead, Primary Care International, we're very small. One of the things that I found extremely attractive about we're not very small, but we're small enough. One of the things I found attractive was that was the malleability, was this idea that actually we're going to focus more on what we the value that we add, more so than the structure of having a massive organization and delivery offices, et cetera, et cetera. It was us thinking, how can we do the same work without having to set up really massive structures that actually get in the way? And what we've learned is, as a small organization, we're able to work to have programs over the last ten years across 60 countries that would have never been possible if we set out to say, oh, we need to set up what you and I may refer to as a country office, as a delivery office, as an affiliate office. We learnt quickly that actually where we could add the most value is by working through technical partners that already have this infrastructure. And I think that is borrowing from that world of focusing on the issue, finding people that share the same values as you, that have the same mission as you, and then working out on the best way to collaborate, to have the most impact. So that's one end of it. But as you say, I think you can visualize a future where a lot of organizations will struggle, especially the big organizations. I have a chat now again with colleagues and some of them will ask me that question but why PCI? Especially within the context of everything you say around decolonization? And I said, yeah, this is where I feel in terms of the size and the malleability of the organization, we can have change because I've recognized that it is difficult, even with the best intentions, for big organizations to change. Right. There's so much more at stake, so many more people to align and so much more fear.
Craig Pollard [00:27:28]:
This is it. And people I speak to are spending so much of their time sort of navigating internal structures. So a new policy has arrived. How do we navigate this as officers from across the global south, what is the implication of this? So that I feel like increasingly there's a lot less patience for slowness, for bureaucracy, for having to be forced to sort of navigate those structures, whereas an organization like PCI, which is much more agile, there's a sense of that it's easier and more sort of suited for the future.
Steve Murigi [00:28:13]:
I think so. And as you say, it's that agility. It's the agility in practical ways as well. It's the agility to respond to the issue that's the most relevant right now. Right? So again, massive organizations doing amazing work, but sometimes finding it difficult to respond to the issues that emerge when they're doing the work. Your mission is to provide access to clean water, et cetera. Great. You've done it for a really long time. You go into a community and maybe something else completely emerges. Sometimes it's difficult because your supporters and donors have known you to do this one thing. So your agility is reduced in that way that sometimes you find it difficult to just evolve what your interventions look like. And that's a separate conversation. And I'm sure colleagues within the sector may feel differently, but I think for me, it's that idea around agility to respond to the issues and as they emerge, the world is changing and is changing rapidly. So being an organization that's mission led, you do want to be responsive. That's why you exist. You do want to be responsive to these changes. And then secondly, it's about learning where things don't work and being able to evolve and be malleable. And I think that's a significant challenge for a lot of organizations at the moment, most of them with amazing intentions. I say to people constantly, don't let this pursuit of perfect strategies stop you from starting to address the problem, from acting. But then, of course, you recognize that it's not that simple. And you have conversation where people will mention, what about the regulation, some of.
Craig Pollard [00:29:51]:
What about the donors?
Steve Murigi [00:29:52]:
Exactly. You can have a good conversation about a donor who's not opposed to localization, for instance. But they may need to observe some regulations and some legislation that don't allow for that to happen. But you're not hearing these things come out very clearly when you have conversation. Everybody is agreeing on the wider principle, but I think we need to also have a conversation about what's realistic for some organizations. But of course, I think that means being exposed. That means having to say that we are struggling to respond to this right now because our size or our structure or our donors or just we're not in the best place to do it. And I mean, I have I have conversations where people say, oh, we'll do it, but, you know, in a couple of years I struggle with that, of course, because when you want change, you you want change, you know, and the people waiting for the change have been waiting for a long time.
Craig Pollard [00:30:43]:
They have. And this requires a whole set of difficult, challenging conversations. And I'm just thinking from the sort of fundraising angle is bringing donors along on this localization journey. When you have the big institutional donors and they hold so much weight in the sector and big organizations moving perhaps more slowly than others, they have their innovation funds, they have opportunities. But how do we take donors on this localization agenda? Because in many ways, they're feeling just as overwhelmed and just as sort of unsure about the future as the nonprofits that they're funding.
Steve Murigi [00:31:23]:
Yeah. I completely hear you and I recognize that that is an issue. I mean, the first argument I would be making would be just around the effectiveness of the work that you're supporting. You can look at the anecdotal evidence, you can look at the evidence that's generated by organization. It's a lot more effective supporting the organization, individuals, grassroots that are most proximal to the problem. So if you want to be effective, if you want your interventions to be sustainable, it's a way to go. Drive across the continent, see all the Boreholes that have been people have just walked away because somebody came, dug a borehole, put a massive brand on it, took pictures, shook hands, people used it, it broke down. They thought, well, that's so and so's borehole, we move on to the next thing. And some of it is in the communities actually that abandoned some of these structures. It was very much the sense that did you look into whether those communities were stay in the same place constantly? Did you understand the culture? Because if you didn't, then if you had, you might have understood that they were likely to move on anyway. Look at some of them malaria programs where a lot of mosquito nets were given to families. Again, you and I can agree, everybody can agree that mosquito nets is an impactful intervention when you're talking about malaria. But how is it being used? Did you take the time to understand again the culture, the dynamics of the family? So where you end up having families using it as fishing nets or maybe the man using it and the children not?
Craig Pollard [00:32:55]:
Because that's just reinforcing existing issues.
Steve Murigi [00:32:59]:
Yeah, that's just the dynamic or this idea. I remember having a conversation with one of my aunts and just saying, I don't use mosquitoes, I find it hot. And I wasn't arriving at what that meant, but that was the reality for this person. It's like, oh no, I don't use it because it's hot. And this is a recent conversation and I thought to myself, if you don't understand that by the time you're just providing this mosquito net and assuming that your money and your support has done what it needs to do, then you're losing out. So for me, it's an effective question. I also think the other argument that we're making is just really what you do matters and how you do it matters. And there is a responsibility that comes with sometimes providing support and the intention doesn't go far enough, right? So I think there's a responsibility to ensure that you're not causing any harm even when you're trying to do good. Right? So that's another element. Much as you're worried, much as it's inconvenienced to find different ways to work and to find different partners and you'd rather rely on systems and partners that you already know. You have to work out whether you're creating another problem by or perpetuating an ongoing issue through your support and then you have to hold yourself responsible. But it's not going to be easy. And I think it's okay that it's not easy.
Craig Pollard [00:34:32]:
It's huge amount of discomfort, right?
Steve Murigi [00:34:34]:
Absolutely huge amount of discomfort.
Craig Pollard [00:34:36]:
It's been so cozy. If you think about the communications right from the community to the sort of country office to then maybe the UK office, then to the donor, this sort of constant sort of flow of positive isn't everything great? That shifting to what you're talking about requires a massive shift to becoming comfortable with a huge amount of discomfort when hearing about the reality, the truth, when things go wrong, and just how hard things are. That's a massive shift for some donors.
Steve Murigi [00:35:15]:
Absolutely. It's a significant shift. And we have to remember, when we say donors, we're also referring to we're referring to people and massive institutions. And within those institutions, there will be different levels of power as well. And maybe some of those levels understand the issue, are ready to make the shift than others. So this is why, in fairness, that we have to exercise some form of patience. Having said that, I think the analogy is I think everybody knows that it needs to happen. I don't, for one, think that there's many people that don't know that the system that we've had for a long time has flaws. And if we continue down the path, it's likely to really break. I think it's also just in terms of the trust. There's a break in trust, whether that's between donors and the third sector or just the wider public and how resources are spent or not spent. I think there is a problem. I think everybody recognizes that, right? But the analogy is, you know, that you might need to go to the gym and it's going to suck. You might know that you need to eat better and it's great for you, but it's inconvenient because maybe it's just much easier to do what you do and just enjoy and not have to think about it. Right? And particularly when there's this innate sense of, but we're doing the right thing, but we're doing the right thing. And if we don't do it, if we don't support them, what happens to all these people? But my quick response to that is the right to life and the right to health should not be exclusive of the right to dignity and respect and what makes us human. So you have to bring those things together. And the question when I speak to partners and I have an opportunity to do so next week, they say, what do we do? You say a lot of these things. What do we do? It's not abstract. The first thing is just listen. Listen to what people need, right? And for a moment, suspend what you already have or what you've always done. Just listen to what people need. And if it makes you uncomfortable, that's okay, right? Have a real conversation, then start asking the right questions, particularly as donors. Donors will be the greatest catalyst to this shift, more so than the third sector because they have the resources and there's a lot of organizations within the third sector that may want to have this change. But if their donors are not ready to support it, it will be that much slower because it's a viability question. Ask the right question. Simplify mechanisms. If you're saying I've had a conversation with somebody said but we never get proposals from organizations and grassroots from the countries and said how hard have you tried? Yeah, what is your mechanism for funding? How simple is it? Because a big organization will have a big resource behind it. They'll have a big team. They can apply for funding and if they don't get it, it's disheartening. But they can deal with the loss of time and the cost of it. A small organization, they simply cannot. If they spend a month doing that and not something else and they end up not being successful, that can really have a significant impact on the organization. And furthermore, do they understand what is being asked of them? So you have to think about all those barriers before you say hey, we are not getting those applications. And if you say, well, how do you understand the barriers? Go to question to the first thing I said. Listen, ask them. Ask them what would make this simple for you? And then ask yourself what will give us the accountability we need for us to feel secure that we're providing this funding and try and bring those things closer together.
Craig Pollard [00:39:01]:
But is it the responsibility of civil society to educate donors or do they need to be doing some of that education themselves?
Steve Murigi [00:39:10]:
I think it is. I'll tell you why, right? And I know this one's going to be this might be contentious. I'll tell you what I think it is because we have significantly contributed to the problem. We have significantly contributed to this misunderstanding and miseducation for years and years and years. We have simply gone with the flow. And for those of us that have been successful and have been benefactors of whatever the process is, we have sustained it. If anything, it has made sense because it has meant that we have remained competitive. So I think we have to own that. And that's why I think there's some level of accountability. And also it's our mission. Our mission is to do the job, transform communities, support communities, et cetera. We have to look at donors as a community as well. It just happens to be the community with the resources. So the same way my argument is the same learning capability development that we have preached for so long, that's facing predominantly of the global south and even that's a question whether it's the true Global South geographically. But that same development that's happening there has to turn around and also just provide learning and capabilities on the other way. And in fairness, there's also much that the donors, particularly the private sector, can also provide in the form of training to the third sector. Right. So multinationals may have some ideas of how to streamline processes to ensure that we're communicating as well as we can with our counterparts who are in multiple parts of the world.
Craig Pollard [00:40:54]:
And that's easy. And that's easy for a big corporate right, if it's their specialism and the impact of that within a nonprofit. But is this a question of value? What the nonprofit sector has valued for so long is cash is as lightly restricted cash as possible. And if, you know, if we start, you know, it's talked about smaller organizations, you know, not being able, not having the time to to put together a massive application, you know, sort of shifting the idea of what we value and need, having a deep understanding of the resources beyond cash, time, expertise, tech. And this is something that I think we've had conversations about before, but things about the impact that something like a corporate, a smartly built corporate partnership that has a broad sense, a holistic sense of value in terms of what can be leveraged for the nonprofit rather than just going in with sort of cash. The dollar signs in our eyes. And you've seen that before on many occasions.
Steve Murigi [00:42:05]:
Yeah, I think in many ways it's a cultural question. I think if I've understood the question correctly, I think within the third sector, it's very much a cultural question. Right. Maybe I should pull back a little bit. I think we come from a place of at least from a third sector standpoint, there's an element of wanting to save the world, right, wanting to just do good. So it's not really just the business and what's most efficient and understanding the different bottlenecks to that. I think a lot of it, because we're coming from that world of knowledge can only come from one place. Knowledge can only be replicated. What replicating can only become from one place. I think we go into it with very little expectation of what our counterparts are able to provide. And I think that's probably less so for a private company. I think for a private company, it's very clear where the value add is coming in across the wider and there's less hang ups. Right. There's a sense of I think, I mean, I haven't worked for a private company, but what I've picked up is there's a sense of, oh yeah, you can be a professional and an expert regardless of where you sat. Right. There's an element of somewhat standardizing what a professional person is within that wider institution. I think that's less so within the third sector. I think there's the hang up of who is a custodian of information of real agency to change, if I've understood the question correctly.
Craig Pollard [00:43:57]:
Yeah, sorry, it wasn't very clear my question.
Steve Murigi [00:44:01]:
No, man, we're in the flow state. It's a good conversation.
Fundraising Radicals [00:44:06]:
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Craig Pollard [00:44:26]:
Now back for the conversation. But the culture but I see this all the time, okay? I see sort of corporate culture clashing with nonprofit sector all the time. That whether it's sort of a charity hiring somebody who has transferable skills, but they don't sort of have that program of transferring those skills over to the nonprofit sector, suddenly working with these scarce resources, with these deeply passionate people who care so much about their work or when it comes to a partnership. The sense of actually, what we're trying to get from this charity is hugely beneficial to our brand. So we're going to give them $50,000 and we're going to take sort of $10 million worth of brand value from this partnership. So you've worked on some massive corporate partnerships, right. Complex. When it comes to that sort of culture difference, how do you navigate that and what does best practice look like when it comes to building partnerships with companies?
Steve Murigi [00:45:35]:
Right? So I think the main one, the key thing is shared values. You have to align, as you said, you have to align those values. You have to have an understanding of what you're getting out of it, and not just as an organization, but what the community that you work with is getting out of it. And you also have to have clarity on what the organization that's supporting you will get out of it. I think that allows you it gives you a bit more not leverage, but it provides you a strong place to start the conversation. Again, when I say things like shared value, there's a lot of people what does that mean? That's abstract. It means that you can ask the question if you're a multinational and we're an organization that works with community X and by working with us, yes, fantastic. You allow us to fulfill our mission and do the work, but also it provides you access to a particular market. Let's be clear, that's not why we're getting into bed with you. But we recognize is that the right technical term? That's not why we're jumping into the partnership with you, but we recognize that there's a benefit. So there has to be some rules of engagement. Right. So what is it that you will expect of us? But also, how are you assigning value to that? And in many ways, even if that doesn't translate to we give you more money, it doesn't have to be that, but it can provide you with this idea that, well, I know that you're in it for the longer term. Right. And you can say that you can say it's good. It's good that you're not just giving me some income or resources just purely for altruistic purposes. Because actually if there is a sense of business value for you indirectly because I don't think there's any organizations that will partner with an organization to help another organization make profit. I hope not. But if there's that indirect benefit then actually it means it should feel like a more mutually respectful relationship. And I have found at least in the last eleven years that those have been the most successful partnerships that I've been involved in. Now we've been clear from the onset we're not going to jeopardize our integrity or risk the mission or jeopardize our reputation. But we recognize that there is some value to you by being a partner. And in many ways this is also what the communities are saying, right? This is also what the communities are saying. This is what if you speak to colleagues within the continent this is what they will say. They say listen, we're trying to move past just aid. We want to be involved in business, we want to be around the table. So let's find those and let's find those things that are those mutually beneficial touch points. Much as we recognize that the funding may come in the form of a grant, let's find those mutual touch points. Because whether we say it or not say it, a lot of organizations a lot of institutions will be getting there is a benefit, of course, to being part of those missions. And whether that's as you and I have, discussed in the past. There are stakeholders asking more of them, whether they are trying to cost correct, whether they're trying to learn more about a particular market. There is some value. And I think some of the more stronger partnerships that I've been involved in have been able to mention those and have an open conversations and then draw the lines around what one partner can do and what the other partner cannot do.
Craig Pollard [00:49:23]:
Open conversations. Right. That communication is so important. If you have that values, foundation and having and building that trust and are able to communicate honestly and effectively and actually these can become quite enjoyable. This is one of the values that I talk about quite a lot with people who are building corporate partnerships is about the energy. When you're walking into that room to have your next meeting, what's the energy? Are you enjoying this? Is everybody enjoying this? And I think that's a great measure. But also as discomfort. Is this partnership pushing you beyond your own comfort zone? Is it helping you to achieve something that you couldn't otherwise? And I think that's when they become really interesting and I think that's when they become deeply innovative and really start challenging and creating change.
Steve Murigi [00:50:16]:
Exactly. And as you say, that in itself is the value add that you can walk in as the friend but also the critical friend and shed some light on a blindside that the partner might have. Right. But really, when I speak to younger people who sort of ask the question, you've been involved in those partnerships, what are some of the things that you need to think about? Essentially, my messaging is usually very straightforward is when you look at a brand, yes, there's that brand value around it, but also just think about that. That's driven by people. So aim to build strong, trusting, respectful relationships with those people and you will go a long way where I've had the opportunity to be invited in, whether it's Barclays or whether it's a garden or GSK, where I've built stronger relationships. Those are the partnerships where I have felt that I have learnt most from, that I have had also the opportunity to provide most information and learning to and just really strong relationships. There are other partnerships where it's very transactional and I think that remains when you only look at the brand and you don't take the time and you say, oh, actually, my project looks like it aligns with what they have, make the application and then you almost have no interaction between that and the next cycle. You can call it a partnership and you can have it on your website and say, we have a partner and they might do the same when it serves. But it's not really partnerships is about those relationships.
Craig Pollard [00:52:00]:
It's a missed opportunity though, right?
Steve Murigi [00:52:02]:
It's a massive missed opportunity.
Craig Pollard [00:52:04]:
But I think it also I think many organizations are sort of overwhelmed with the ideas of corporates and building corporate partnerships. It's often easier to see it as this sort of monolithic organization when they're so much more complex than that. And some of the things I talk about on the program and the course is about viewing corporates rather as sort of overlapping communities of people. You have all the complexity and a company essentially is just a piece of paper, right? It's a piece of paper signed saying, these are the directors, we accept fiscal and legal responsibility. Beyond that, it's an office space. But then it's the communities of people and how you and with your comms background as well, hugely helpful to understand how you motivate, engage and inspire these individual different communities within companies to engage with you. Is that your experience?
Steve Murigi [00:53:06]:
Absolutely. And it really just again, speaks to my initial point around seeing donors as different communities in the same way and hence why we have to be open to providing learning. But I absolutely agree. I think it really goes a long way. And again, once you've built up some of those relationships, when you have the opportunity, that also allows you to really understand the different dynamics, not different from how you would interact with a community where you're implementing the program, as you say, you'll be the complexities, you'll be different stakeholders, you'll be different views, different motivations within the same community. There's a replication of that when you look at a corporate partner, right? You have a chat and they say, well, our team understands, and all donors, all donors, our team understands this. We support your cause. But this particular group, their motivation is different, but this is how we can navigate that. And you learn so much, and that allows you to progress the conversation. So you're absolutely spot on. Of course, an initial interaction has to be based on the values around the brand itself. Is that someone that I can partner with, or is it that misaligned with what I would be supporting? Grant but once you move past that, you're well within the community. It is your job as a relationships person, fundraiser, communications person, chief executive, to now understand, okay, this is the community that I'm interacting with. What is the best way for me to communicate to them? What's the best way for me to be understood, what is the best way for me to get the best out of this relationship? Right? And that's the job. Right. And I think suspend your goal to get money for a second, which, again, sounds really counterintuitive, but yeah, suspend, you've walked in suspend. I need them to give me a million focus on how do I make this community understand why I'm here? How do I get them to understand, at the very least, understand my mission? And how do I then generate some enthusiasm around what we could potentially do together to achieve and pursue that mission. That then will lead you to the money? But I think typically, what tends to happen is people start with the dollar signs, and maybe this was your previous question, they start with, oh, company X. I've been told by my colleague who works for a different organization that they got 500K from them last year. I think we can get 500K. That's the wrong place to start. And to be fair, as you said, the energy translates. People will recognize very quickly if they feel that, oh, you're just having this quick conversation with me so that I can ask you for a concept at the end of the conversation, and then it just doesn't happen. You get a much better reaction when people feel you're passionate about what you do. You're credible in doing it. Is there room for us to take these conversations forward? Not, not it's not different from relationships with people anyway, right. It's no different from your fast date, from your fast conversation. No matter your intentions on your first date. Maybe you can, you can't just rock up and just say, hey, I want to marry you. In much that you might think that that's what the person wants to hear or what they might be looking for. It is just not what you do. You're there to be understood and more so. You're there to understand the person and then to see whether there's something there and you have to just let things evolve and learn. And that learning about one another and why you're there is what determines whether it's a thing or not, right? Rather than coming in with all these sort of massive intentions and asks and thinking that being deliberate will get you there quicker.
Craig Pollard [00:57:14]:
Yes. So it's leaving the space, creating the space, patience openness to learning, rather than having that endpoint already in your mind. Because that is, and I say this a lot, is that if you focus on the funding, you close off so many other opportunities and doors that you.
Steve Murigi [00:57:39]:
Just don't know are there absolutely spot on. I mean, when I get a chance and I've had a great conversation with people and they think, what can we do? Typically my answer will be very close to that. They say, oh, practically, what can we do to support? It could be resources, it could be your networks, it could be your technical expertise, it could just be advice. Right? And mostly if an organization is more a resourcing organization, they might feel that actually that's where they could add the most value. But also I've just been involved in a partnership where a partner has introduced us and brokered a relationship with another partner and I thought that's absolutely amazing because that, as you say, is a lost opportunity. If you're working with a massive multinational, just think of all the relationships they have outside of themselves, right? Their suppliers, their competitors. That is a whole world that could be open to you. But if you just focus on a particular call and a particular call only, and you don't take the time to create that space to explore other areas, then you miss out and it's very short term. So with the partnership that I supported in my role within Armor previously, where I was managing the relationship with GSK, it just evolved and evolved and evolved and evolved and evolved. And a lot of that was that openness to exploring. What else? Not just the needs on the ground, although that was a significant part of it, but also what could strengthen the marriage. What else could we do that would add value to the work that we've already done previously or to the work that we might do in the future?
Craig Pollard [00:59:31]:
And it gets to the point where you just sort of connected at that point.
Steve Murigi [00:59:36]:
It sort of blooms from that, right?
Craig Pollard [00:59:37]:
And then you're just going to progress together. And I think that's usually exciting when corporate partnerships reach that level of trust, maturity and impact because that just grows as you progress together. Steve, I feel like I could talk to you for another sort of 3 hours.
Steve Murigi [00:59:59]:
No, absolutely same here. I mean, I will say this so that it doesn't sound that it's just a bed of roses and if you just do these things that Craig and Steve are saying, it's going to work out. I mean, I think in many ways there will be situations that are frustrating. I think sometimes there will be partners that won't get it and that's fine. I think I'm experiencing one right now where there will be organizations that are more closed. They prefer a more traditional way of doing things. So you only have contact with very few people and they're not open to the exploration. But don't be disheartened. I think if nothing else, recognize that those exist but the other ones that are open to conversations also exist. Lean into those because I think it's worth the while. It's definitely worth the while, yeah, thinking.
Craig Pollard [01:00:50]:
About patience because when people change as well, you don't know what sort of three or four years down the line for those more traditional ones. Sometimes it's a case of acceptance but it's really thinking, taking that sort of portfolio approach and really valuing your time and thinking kind of very clearly about what the best use of that precious resource is when it comes to building partnerships because partnerships and chasing partnerships can just swallow all of your resource. But it's interesting. But I guess what you said earlier is about starting with values. And if that you discover that and having those open conversations about values right at the start, you'll discover that about your corporate partnerships faster, whether they prefer this communication or whether they're closed, whether they're more traditional or whether they are more progressive, interested in a whole other range of things. But it also requires a deep understanding of who you are as an organization and what you need and what you want to achieve. So I guess it always comes back to that clarity of mission and absolute focus but also understanding sort of largely the areas where you can collaborate and innovate absolutely.
Steve Murigi [01:02:13]:
And the confidence and everything you've said. So I won't repeat that because it's super, super clear and it's the confidence and it's the confidence to be able to walk away from those relationships that you know, won't get you to the mission quick. If anything, they might get in the way. Right. And this goes back to my argument around being a malleable, agile organization. Is there's this less restrictions to you turning around and saying no, that's not for us because then perhaps there's less core costs overhead so there's a lot less that's forcing you to go into relationships and partnerships that actually don't serve the mission and don't serve who you truly are. Right. So I think that's critical for an organization to have that confidence. I think in my previous role, that was one of the arguments I made quite often. We have to be a don't constantly feel that your pipeline needs to reflect a new partner that you're pursuing each quarter, each six months, sometimes leaning into those people that those warm relationship, those partners that you already have a good understanding of. Spending more time investing in those is more beneficial. But I. Think sometimes we fall because of the lack of confidence. I would say because we're worried. If that falls through, then what happens? You start to lose your position. So you spend so much time trying to pursue a new partner and a new partner, and actually it would have been better off for you to focus on those that you'd already aligned your values with and also just being in a position to just say no. Right. Being in a position to say no. I think as a third sector, we don't exist to just remain viable, much as that's critical. Right. You cannot put the organization ahead of the mission. You have to remember, as you said, be true to your existence and to why you're there. And I'm always cautious when I say that as a chief exec, because I don't want anybody to panic like, oh, he's just going to be passionate in itself, is not going to pay the bills. You have to manage the business. You're not doing any of this foolishly. It's not taking your finger in the air. But it is having those core principles when you're making those critical decisions about where you spend your time.
Craig Pollard [01:04:33]:
That's such an important but hard to find thing for so many organizations. Confidence, because I see it all the time. In terms of the confident, organizations are the one that take this deeply organic approach to fundraising, whether it's sort of with wealthy individuals, whether it's with institutions, whether it's with corporates and the investment of that time. The belief that I'm going to put my time into this and grow this. Because that takes a huge amount of confidence that many organizations, that's beyond many organizations. But it's an incredible thing to aim for. And I think that it sort of dispels the myth that there's all these donors out there and that they're better. They're going to provide you with the funding because that is, again, focusing on the funding. But if you look inside and at those closest to you and think, how can I inspire, engage, motivate the people, the organizations that are already connected to us? It's probably for most organizations, going to deliver the most funding, the most stability, and the most exciting innovation, creative opportunities for the future.
Steve Murigi [01:05:49]:
Right. And again, that mirrors the work that you would do with the communities, which is my mantra. This is always my thing. The worlds don't exist as separately as we think they do. Of course, it's the same way you work with communities. The idea isn't to be in all the communities, just touch and go, trying to work out which that's not how you do it. You want to focus on the depth of the relationships and you work with the communities. It's exactly you mirror that. On the other side, it's a more impactful way to work. Right. And it also just, you know, it just allows you to plan better. I've been in situations where you walk in and the pipeline is the longest list prospects, right. And you say, well, what is the let's work out, what the likelihood of this? You only work out with like you end up with it's a list of about 40 and it's only about five or six where there's actual something. So you sort of have to say, well, you do realize that first of all the list becomes misleading because then you think it gives you a sense of it's a misdirection. You think you have got all these opportunities, but you really don't. And actually you compromise the six where you have a really good shot by chasing all these other ones, where actually if you maximize your effort on the six, you'll probably end up in a good place also. Then it just allows you to plan better because you can say, well, actually in terms of really the income that I'm expecting, it's probably around the six rather than the 20. So you don't invest in other areas that you might not be able to cover just because it was never realistic to begin with. Right. And you realize, correct, there's so many organizations that will budget on the basis of just what's in their pipeline and not just the income. That's certain. Right. And then that's how you also end up in a situation where you're trying to fill where those gaps exist just to remain vibrant. You're just constantly chasing. You're constantly chasing. But yeah, there's many things to consider. But I think if there's anybody out there who's listening and they're struggling, hey, we are all struggling, number one. Right. So don't feel alone. Even with all this information and all this sort of experience, it is tough out there. It's building relationships takes time, it's daunting. But there are those core things that you and I have been talking about and I think those will serve you well. Right. And just be open, open to the learning and just know it's the job, it's the mission, right. It shouldn't be as difficult. This is where we are hope this is why I suppose you're doing this, Craig, and I commend you for it. It is to try and break that barrier that it shouldn't be that this difficult for organizations that are doing good work and having real impact on the ground to get to mobilize resources or to go through a process of mobilizing resources, it really shouldn't be so complicated. Much as resources are scarce in the world, I think there are those people out there that really, really want to support organizations and missions and we just need to declutter our processes and our mindset and we need to collaborate more. That's the other thing I think just within the sector we need to collaborate more and we need to find those best practices and try and replicate and educate the donors. It will serve us in the future. But I thought I should say that just because in case anybody thinks, like, oh, he's so lucky, it sounds like he's got it down, doesn't have to worry. No, it is daunting.
Craig Pollard [01:09:31]:
It's daily effort, right? We put our shoulders to that boulder every day, and this is, I think, at the heart of fundraising and partnership. When you put your shoulder to the boulder every day and just push and you show up. You show up every day and you push a little more, push a little more, and sometimes it suddenly starts rolling for a bit, sometimes it rolls back on you. But I think it's showing up and being there and the consistency, you have a huge amount of determination, grit and resilience. Steve, it's one of the things that I've always admired about you. What role does that play and where does that come from? How do you revive yourself and keep your energy?
Steve Murigi [01:10:19]:
I have soon more recently realized that I'm very obsessive, actually. I don't know where that came from, but actually, I can trace it to my younger days. I have this friend once I mean, this always rings in my ear when I think about this. I remember him saying to me, we were trying to get the car going, but for some reason it just wasn't working. And I was sat there for literally a whole hour just doing the same thing over and over, and then it just worked, right? I didn't do anything different to what everybody else was doing. And I remember his name is Martin. I grew up when I was in Nairobi, we grew up in the same estate. And he said, if you're struggling with something and you want something, somebody just do it. Just give it to this, give it to Steve, because he would just keep doing it and and I think that that's partly just do the same thing.
Craig Pollard [01:11:13]:
Over and over and over again.
Steve Murigi [01:11:14]:
Yeah, I think I think partly it is that it's that obsession. I've now recently, you and I had this chat more recently about running, right? I get into it and I get excited about it and I just obsess. I think there's a personality there that has worked, but of course, it doesn't come without its drawbacks, right? Because sometimes when you're obsessing about whatever it is that you're obsessing about at the time, it can take you away from other things that you have to be doing. So it's something that I have to observe, but I do think that's one of the things I'm learning slowly, I can now start to see it in my nine year old as well. And it's just like she latches onto something. It's just like go, go. And I'm like, it's probably good for you if you get the right thing and it's something that you care passionately about. I think that's a personality trait. We'll see when I'm 80, if I make it to 80, and I look back whether I think that was a good thing or a bad thing, we're yet to see. I think the other thing I have learned, however, and this is just learning from people yourself, Craig. Other people that I look up to is this idea of actually the difference between those people that really succeed in whatever it is, whether it's a partnership, fundraising, whether it's just the job, whether it's whatever you're chasing is just not giving up. It's exactly what you've just said now it's just showing up and pushing against the boulder. It's like running. It's just this concept. If you look critically at those people that have done they're all in the same industry. It helps to be skilled. It helps to have talent. But the biggest, I think, variable, the most significant variable in my eyes at least, and again, I might be proven wrong by as I live longer, is just this idea of not quitting, that you just show up. Just show up and just do it. Because in your showing up, you are as if it's grit. You're pushing against whatever obstacle is there. But after you're learning, you pick up something different on the next day, and you're like, oh, if I adjust that, it felt better. And then you do it again, and then you improve, and then you get better and better and better. So I think that's probably I get a lot of satisfaction from that. I can trace it in almost anything I've done. When I was doing photography, I would sit there on the dining table with my laptop editing image for hours, man hours, you know, and I look back now, see, now the problem is I can no longer do it now.
Craig Pollard [01:13:42]:
But I remember your photography. You're very modest, but your photographs are beautiful.
Steve Murigi [01:13:48]:
But see, the problem is, Craig, I can't do it now, because now I'm out of that obsession and onto the next one. There's almost a sense of like, oh, can I still do it? But it was that I think that's it in terms of where I get my energy from, I don't know. I think having a strong foundation at home, I think that really, really helps. I think being reminded especially you will know this as a dad watching the kids, they will slow you down. I think they will slow you down, and they will make you question a lot of things. I think that's useful. I think they remind you what's important. But also, if I'm really, truly honest with you, Craig, I think there's almost always a sense of not guilt, but there's almost a sense of because of all my experiences and maybe where I started as a human, there's almost this sense of, oh, you've had an opportunity, and you have to make sure that you utilize that to the best of your ability to change it for your former self. Those people that may be in the same situations and they haven't had the same opportunities as you. Yeah. They just haven't navigated things in the, in the same way. There's always a little bit of guilt there, if I'm absolutely honest. There's always a sense that, oh, the plan is for you to keep that door open and to open other doors and don't forget where you're coming from and just how phenomenal, just how lucky you are, right? I mean, it's 2023, you can order food from your couch. And I'm not saying that this isn't exclusive to any part of the world, because you can do this in Nairobi. But there will be those of us that enjoy that right now. And yet there will still be pregnant woman somewhere that can't access care. There will still be a child with asthma. And the parents just don't know what to do, because there simply is in support. And I think those so when I think of those people, for me, I'm very restless. It becomes very restless. And I think this is why, much as sometimes I'm hit by, oh, I'm here, there's a sense of empowerment that comes with, oh, yeah, you are here, so do the job, do the thing, remember why you do it. So, yeah, that's probably it.
Craig Pollard [01:16:17]:
I'd say that's an amazing set of motivations. Steve, it's been an absolute pleasure, as always. It's always wonderful to hear your views, your perspectives, your ideas. So thank you.
Steve Murigi [01:16:33]:
You're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you for yeah, thank you for the opportunity to have a chat today. But I mean, Craig, you're being modest, right, and I suspect you have to be, I suppose, as the person who's hosting the podcast, but you've been a great support to me. I won't share your stories, I won't share the cycling, all these things in Uganda. What's the English phrase near missed, whatever it is you're getting almost run over by trucks, near misses in Uganda and us rushing to the hospital and a lot of Red Bulls and conversations as we drove around and worried about the Cattina project and where we were headed. You've been a great support for really long time. So that in itself, this is what I mean by the opportunity and and support by by people and just really striking warm, sincere relationships that you that can carry you through life. So I'm really, really grateful for that and for your amazing work. And even as a trustee of Amref in the UK a few years after, and what you're doing now, I said to my team the other day, I'm having a chat with the colleague, but also, I really respect the work that Craig is doing, trying to support fundraisers from all over the world. So this is just saying, well, if you're in Kenya, if you're in Uganda, if you're in Liberia, how can we support you to generate those funds directly? Because, again, that's how getting those resources directly is the most effective way to do the job. So you're supporting the cause in many different ways. So I'm really, really grateful for the opportunity to chat to you today, really grateful for all the other conversations we've had over the years, and I wish you all the best. Give me a shout anytime when you want these crazy ideas to be aired. Outside of that, give me a shout anyway so we can talk about everything else.
Craig Pollard [01:18:33]:
Of course I want to talk to you again tomorrow because it's always so inspiring. Your views, your honesty, your integrity, your experience is so helpful, and I just love your commitment and I love this idea at the core of what you were talking about, about taking what we're learning and know about how to build exceptional partnerships and listen to donors and reflect that, to how we work with communities. I think that's a phenomenal lesson that everyone can take from this. Thank you so much, Steve.
Steve Murigi [01:19:10]:
Absolutely. As Santa santa Santosana, thank you so much for the time.
Craig Pollard [01:19:14]:
Fundraising Radicals [01:19:15]:
I hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode of the Fundraising Radicals podcast and that this conversation has challenged, informed, and maybe even inspired you and your fundraising leadership practice. Please do check out the show notes, subscribe to the podcast on the platform of your choice, and do visit fundraisingradicals.com to find out all the ways in which we're working to empower, equip, and engage fundraisers all over the world.