Craig Pollard [00:00:03]:
Welcome back for another episode of the Fundraising Radicals podcast. I'm your host, Craig Pollard. And thank you once again for joining this exploration and exchange of alternative global fundraising perspectives and practices that are grounded in experiences and expertise in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and Latin America. Today, our conversation continues with Nachula Wilson, who is director of strategic partnerships at Ashesi University in Ghana in West Africa. Nachula has worked in Rwanda and Mauritius with the African Leadership University and for Standard Chartered Bank in Zambia. Nachula brings a broad continent wide perspective to real life partnership building across Africa. We connected just a few months ago when I was searching on LinkedIn for people with deep experience and expertise on what it's like to build funding partnerships in West Africa. Once she overcame her suspicion of my unsolicited invitation to connect, we instantly found lots of common ground and a shared deep dissatisfaction with the dominant North American and European narratives of high value fundraising.
Craig Pollard [00:01:18]:
And the day before we recorded our conversation, Nachula had joined a Global Radicals Fundraising Leadership Program Regional Panel Webinar, which was focused on corporate partnerships in Africa. So I dive right in here to get her to recap some of the clear, thoughtful insights she shared with us during that session. Welcome to the Fundraising Radicals podcast, Nachula Wilson.
Nachula Wilson [00:01:46]:
Thank you, Craig. Glad to be here.
Craig Pollard [00:01:49]:
And coming from our panel conversation yesterday on corporate partnerships in Africa. Yesterday, you came up with 4 points that you think every corporate partnerships person who's interested in building corporate partnerships in Africa should focus on. Let's start there.
Nachula Wilson [00:02:11]:
Okay. So I, I was walking through what I have learned. Right? And what I I now can say, you know what? This is something you need to pay attention to because it helps cut down the amount of effort and the amount of time that you're spending, chasing the wrong names. Right? So the first is, identifying who to be speaking with in an organization, with corporates especially. With the other ones, it's it's pretty straightforward. You know where the power lies, and you know who your interface is. But with the corporates, it's difficult because the decision maker and the the one that holds the time tool that you think you're supposed to be interfacing with is often not the same person. So it's important to know So if somebody is head of CSR, head of philanthropy, head of community engagement, etcetera, to what extent is this person going to be able to say? Even if they love me.
Nachula Wilson [00:03:11]:
Right? And and when they love you, that's a good thing. But even if they love me, to what extent can they say, okay. Let's give these guys, you know, $500,000. Most times, the part doesn't line with the title. So it's important to scope out who the decision maker is and to start building a relationship with them. And then another piece that's really important is figuring out their capacity because there's so many corporates, and a lot of them are very profitable. When you look at their their bottom lines, you look at their, net profit, you're like, oh, there's so much money here. There's you know, we can work with these guys, and they they have the right attitude, etcetera.
Nachula Wilson [00:03:50]:
But often, that money is not what you think it will be. Sometimes it's that maybe they give $1,000,000 a year towards social and community driven activities, But they may subdivide that into, you know, a million for 500 projects. And then maybe you're trying to raise 5,000,000. How far does that get you? You know? And sometimes they have a big chunk, but they don't actually give it out. It depends very much on the whims on maybe the CEO if we give out this year, if we don't, etcetera. So it's important to to check. We do research. We have a research person.
Nachula Wilson [00:04:27]:
And, I mean, just the difference between before we had her and after we've had her is just amazing. We can narrow down pretty quickly who's a good person to be speaking to, where should we place them in terms of how much effort we make to build a relationship. And then the third one is working through others. I I had said yesterday that this was one of those that I found difficult because
Craig Pollard [00:04:50]:
It's not easy, is it?
Nachula Wilson [00:04:52]:
In, in my mind, you've hired me. Right? And you've called me Director of Strategic Partnerships. So I should be the person leading the conversations. But often, it's easier to work through somebody else, especially if the relationship is already held by the other person. Right? As as a fundraiser, yours is to to how do I put it? You're just guiding and facilitating and and making sure that it's going in the right direction. So you you want, you know, setting up meetings, invitations to events, and picking up on notes after, etcetera. But it doesn't have to be you speaking. It can be your CEO.
Nachula Wilson [00:05:30]:
It can be your board member. It can be another member of your team that has a closer relationship with that party. And finally, handling I, I called it having misguided quid pro quo. Right? Because . . .
Craig Pollard [00:05:44]:
I like that.
Nachula Wilson [00:05:45]:
Because one of the challenges I found working with corporates is that they they want something out of every transaction that they do, which with with the other categories, with the high net worth individuals, with the with the foundations, it's not quite so. They understand that the reason that they're giving you this is so that you can go and do good work. You know? But with the corporates, because and you can't blame them. They are profit making, ventures. And for them, everything that they do has to line back into, you know, how much profits can this get me? How much money can this get me? So every dollar that they give out tends to be linked to how much more presence can I get, how, you know, how visible can I be to people that buy my product, Does this help me in any way? So knowing that and then creating opportunities for an exchange on on how we recognize contributions, I think it's it's great.
Craig Pollard [00:06:41]:
These are great. I love these four ideas. It's interesting. I yeah. For for me, it sort of encapsulates the challenge of working with corporates. But you don't just work with corporates. Right? You don't work with companies. You work, much more broadly and much more holistically.
Craig Pollard [00:06:55]:
Right?
Nachula Wilson [00:06:57]:
Yeah. So I work with so the corporate is one of them, corporate foundations and corporates, but much more work with just foundations. And in a sense, they are corporate foundations, but they are very separate from their corporate bodies. And they they make decisions and have a budget and have you know, that they approve themselves that, you know, it it runs within their sphere. So we categorize them differently. And then also with high net worth individuals. So your your millionaires and others that are that are interested in giving. So, yeah, re categorizing, I think, is good.
Craig Pollard [00:07:34]:
And you're employed by Ashesi University in Ghana. And where are your donors located? Are they, you know, are they are they global? Are they concentrated in West Africa? Where where are they?
Nachula Wilson [00:07:46]:
So, so I guess it's this is where I can explain a little bit why my role was created. Right? So Ashesi is heavily funded by donor money. I don't wanna say what percentage, but it's it's always different every year. But we we acknowledge that the work that we do is heavily dependent on donor funding. So we have a very long history of fundraising, except we've only done that fundraising in the US, like, primarily in the US up to about 2015, 16, 17, thereabouts. Then we started to look more into the continent. So my role was created to to kind of scope out capacity and interest of donors on the African continent to give towards Ashesi. And the idea was there is the proof of the pudding at Ashesi.
Nachula Wilson [00:08:40]:
Right? The what we do, what we create, everybody can see the results. And these results are, especially because that's in our mission, more, visible in in Africa. Right? And so if if we see the results, don't we want to contribute towards creating more of them? Right? So so then my role was created. And so I've spent the last 4 years trying to understand who is an African donor. And I have to say, honestly, we lost a lot of time in the beginning using a very Americanized model to try and identify who is an African donor. And over time
Craig Pollard [00:09:20]:
Can you tell me about that, about what that initial approach was? Because that's the dominant fundraising approach. Right? It's the North American, European approach to fundraising. So
Nachula Wilson [00:09:29]:
It's not
Craig Pollard [00:09:29]:
So how did that how did that perspective, that dominant orthodoxy result in you wasting your time?
Nachula Wilson [00:09:37]:
So you, you find and and to be fair, the only really formalized approach to fundraising that we all know is very American based. And and that's where the whole idea of it kind of sprung up. I mean, not to say that no other regions in the world are philanthropic. Everybody is. But the structure that's built around it and, you know, the the I wanna say the audacity to create a whole Yeah. In an organization for somebody that goes out to ask for funding is is a rather American thing. So when we started, because the history was American, we were using a very American approach. The the level of comfort of a donor to calls and emails and constant for me, for the African mind, that that's excessive.
Nachula Wilson [00:10:24]:
You know? You don't want that hitting you in the face in that way. Right? But the American approach is that's that's how they do things. Even in in the messaging, in in the kind of pictures that we use, etcetera, They used to be targeted at the US. Not to say we we denigrated ourselves, but we were looking at what does the donor want to see. And if the donor is an American, then what is interesting for them? Over time, we've learned to adjust that. So a lot of the the messaging that that is generic at the organization, I tend to adjust. So if if there's an event that's targeted at everybody, Africa and and the US, I tend to mellow my messaging, you know, remove some of the very marketing oriented messaging out of it and tone it down a little for my donors because I knew that that may not necessarily they won't be receptive to that kind of language. So we we we create you know, this is what the campaign is.
Nachula Wilson [00:11:22]:
This is how much we're raising, and this is how we need to do it. And then there's, like, general messaging. But then for the Africa piece, I take it down and I go, okay. So how can I now cut this out and make it more applicable to the African donors? Especially because, I wanna say, in in the mind of and this is something I go back and forth with with my team. The the mind of an African person who is born and raised in Africa contributing towards something like a Ashesi. The mindset is different. They have the experience of what Ashesi is doing. A lot of us have very similar backgrounds.
Nachula Wilson [00:11:59]:
And and not to generalize Africa, but, yes, in a lot of ways, we have had the African education. So we can tell you what's wrong with African education.
Craig Pollard [00:12:09]:
Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:12:09]:
And so when we see what Ashesi is doing, it's it's much easier for us to understand what Ashesi is doing. You don't need to sell it, oversell it to us. You know what I mean? We know what it's doing, and we know how it's different. And
Craig Pollard [00:12:20]:
All of those shortcuts, all of that shared experience, it it makes that sort of hard sell, I guess, quite jarring and kind of Yes. Uncomfortable.
Nachula Wilson [00:12:30]:
Yep. And so we have to adjust. So I have names that are US names, and then I have African names. And I've realized there's a bit of a difference even when you have African names. You have your high net worth individuals who are African, but, mostly born and raised in the west. And then, you know, they're back in Africa trying to do something good versus the high net worth individual who is African, born and raised in Africa, and has become rich by being in Africa. It's different approaches. It's just each one is very different.
Nachula Wilson [00:13:02]:
So you you you learn the nuances, and you change your approach based on which one you're dealing with.
Craig Pollard [00:13:07]:
4 years of of scoping and exploring donors in Africa, what are
Craig Pollard [00:13:13]:
the sort of, you know, apart from apart from the difference in in in how you sort of adjust your communication and sort of engagement, but what else have you learned about sort of proving the concept of African giving to Ashesi?
Nachula Wilson [00:13:28]:
So and and it's an interesting it's a fairly new phenomena. Right? Formal formalized philanthropy. Initially, we kind of went, this is so hard. Why are there so few donors that, are are willing to get everybody would tell you raising money in Africa is hard. And then, you know, you you come back to the table, and you go, wait. I'm an African. Right? And all of us in a certain sense are philanthropic, because even when I look look at my my rich auntie, my rich uncle, right, how is it that they give if they give? A lot of them are giving towards their immediate circle. So, like, in my home, I will give, you know, the person that takes care of my home extra money when they need to send their child to school.
Nachula Wilson [00:14:16]:
I pay the school fees.
Craig Pollard [00:14:17]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:14:18]:
If there's a funeral, you know, you contribute a chunk of money. If there's even within your your community, so around me, in the home that I live in, there's I don't know I don't know if we can call it a company. There is a a company that sells water from underground, underground water, near my house. Yeah. And they got together and arranged for everyone within, you know, this little radius of where we live to put together some money so that we could clear the road area near where they are and and to to cement it and make it neat and make sure the road is clear. So it's it's we're contributing to all of these things, but we're not formal it's not formalized. Right? So we're not even counting how much we're giving, but it is philanthropy.
Craig Pollard [00:15:00]:
Oh, but is that a more authentic way of philanthropy? All of those flows of finance, whether they're remittances from abroad, that this flow of cash is such a I I I lived in Nigeria for a while and and saw it daily, whether it's the the guy who's fixing the road and just throw naira out the window because some young guy is is filling holes in the road. It's just there's a there's a flow of funding and generosity, and it feels more philanthropic than formalized big philanthropy as it's labeled.
Nachula Wilson [00:15:32]:
See? And and that's as somebody who's a fundraiser, it's difficult to even come to that conclusion. Right?
Craig Pollard [00:15:39]:
It is.
Nachula Wilson [00:15:40]:
Because you understand the value of formalized philanthropy. But in the way that it has come from the US and the way that it works in the US is you get benefits for your philanthropic giving. Right? American donors receive, I think, it's tax cuts or tax benefits, etcetera Mhmm. For whatever dollar they give. Everything you give, you you get some returns. It's a financial gain for giving. So you kinda go, it should be what philanthropy is about. And you're right.
Nachula Wilson [00:16:11]:
Isn't it better for us to look at our community and go, hey. Here are the problems that we're facing. How can I help solve these? I have more than the people around within my community. Let me help fix this. Right? So it's it's it's very much something that needs to be discussed. But then and and and the reason that it it's something that needs to be tabled, we can't conclusively say the American model is bad, is because the American model has worked for a lot of organizations outside of America, so we benefit from that system. And when we try to raise our own, it's difficult to make it so, you know, CEO of whatever, high net worth individual that who has no children at the university. You know? How do we get him to give us money in a formal manner? He has a community that he gives to, and it that's why that's a difficult thing.
Nachula Wilson [00:17:03]:
Right? That's I have a community that I give to. This is the way I know to get Yeah. This is the way I know to create value in my community. And trying to get them to give to formal, you know, organizations, it is like asking them to change how they work. Right? It's it's like you're reeducating them, and and you wonder if it's good.
Craig Pollard [00:17:23]:
It's so interesting Because in some ways, this this this fundraising is a sort of foreign import
Nachula Wilson [00:17:31]:
Yes.
Craig Pollard [00:17:31]:
This idea. And and maybe it's maybe it's a reflection of sort of the individualistic societies where it's sort of blossomed and worked versus the much more sort of community centric. Yeah. I I places where it's part of every day to give money and and to donate, and it flows. Whereas, so so, yeah, it's it's just really interesting perspective.
Nachula Wilson [00:17:59]:
And I think that that's the and I'm glad you you've said it. It's like it's almost capitalist, kind of. Right? Because because it's it's it's kind of what the corporates do is give to receive something. Give to receive something. In the same way, I think that the way that and and not to say that Americans and, you know, Western people don't give out of the goodness of their hearts, but just that the way that the their system has been structured, it encourages giving because there is something to be received. And in the idea of philanthropy, it's supposed to be, at least in my understanding, giving so that another can benefit. I'm not trying to benefit from this. I think that I I can share what I have and another can benefit.
Nachula Wilson [00:18:42]:
So it this spoils a little bit the purpose of the giving.
Craig Pollard [00:18:45]:
And is there a is there a do you see a a real modesty when it comes to donations from wealthy individuals, from foundations, in Africa towards Ashesi?
Nachula Wilson [00:18:56]:
Is the modesty the way they give?
Craig Pollard [00:18:59]:
Modesty, humility. Yeah. I mean, you know, is it is it about names on buildings or is it about making contributions sort of more modestly and quietly?
Nachula Wilson [00:19:11]:
So we've we've been quite careful to clean out those that are seeking loud banging singing to celebrate their giving. We suffer for it be because there's so many that we can't take. Right? We suffer for it, but we've been careful to to try and and take that off. But, yes, there is modesty in what we do receive. We we get a lot of donors sometimes that give don't even wanna be named. They they just I really love this program that you run. Here's what I wanna contribute to. I wanna see it continue.
Nachula Wilson [00:19:45]:
And then they they you know, and trying to get them to, you know, because sometimes you have to manage them. So you're you're trying to get on calls and going, you know, this is what happened, and do you wanna hear more? They're like, no. No. No. No. No. As far as they're concerned, I've given it to you so you can do good work. And that's it.
Nachula Wilson [00:20:01]:
So there is a modesty, but and the reason that we've we've learned to to to kind of put a a limit on what we can and cannot receive is in a lot of ways sometimes. So there's the community giving that that is quiet, but there is a church system of giving. If anybody's been to an African church, you know, you know that there is an order of who is important.
Craig Pollard [00:20:27]:
That's a flow that's a flow of money in those in those churches. It's incredible.
Nachula Wilson [00:20:32]:
Exactly. You know, there's an order of who is important, who's more important based on how much they give to the work of the church. Right? And there's a lot of bells and whistles attached to giving in churches. So so sometimes that car wounds it to the philanthropic giving outside of the church. And I don't know if it's if it's really just more Ghanaian because that's the most of my exposure is West Africa, Ghana, Nigeria. But maybe the south as well is probably the same because when when you visit churches, this is what you see. Those that gave the biggest donations have their names chartered up. They sit in the front.
Nachula Wilson [00:21:09]:
You know? They yeah. Yeah. There's accolades given to them. Yeah. So yeah.
Craig Pollard [00:21:14]:
Yeah. But it's, it's so interesting. It's just what what you say there about a a donor making that contribution and then and then just not not even needing reporting or communication about the impact of the donation. It it just makes me laugh that, you know, that North America and Europe are coming around to this idea of trust based philanthropy, when actually, this has been going on in Africa for centuries. It's not it's not this it's not a new concept. It's just yeah. It it just, the irony of that, strikes me quite hard.
Nachula Wilson [00:21:48]:
And it's we always you wonder what led to philanthropy that comes with so many, you know, knots and and ties everywhere.
Craig Pollard [00:21:58]:
Strings. Yeah. Yeah. So many strings and conditions and yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:22:01]:
Exactly. Strings attached. Yes. So so there is something to be studied about the history of philanthropic giving towards Africa and why it initially started with those strengths. A lot of these things are often based on opinion and on, you know, whatever it is that is the prevailing idea of who Africans are. Right? And then because of that, you go
Craig Pollard [00:22:24]:
And racism.
Nachula Wilson [00:22:26]:
Thank you. I didn't wanna say it.
Craig Pollard [00:22:29]:
Frank, but frankly, it's it's it's all of these strings are based on mistrust because these people look different to us white comfortable donors. Yeah. So it's a
Nachula Wilson [00:22:43]:
Yeah. How can we trust them? Yeah. Of course. And I was gonna say, it is interesting.
Craig Pollard [00:22:49]:
Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:22:49]:
It it is interesting that now after, you know, several decades of of philanthropic work in Africa, now is when the organizations are gone. You know what? Maybe let's try it this way. Right? All of the other models, you know, but but it's not as good as we want it to be. Maybe there is just trust the community to know what they are doing.
Craig Pollard [00:23:10]:
Yeah. You say interesting. I say infuriating. It's, the the how much harder African organizations need to work in terms of transparency proving transparency. It's starting from a much lower base with north Global North based donors, and that's incredibly difficult. Is it so does it feel sort of like like a I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but how does it feel working with Ghanaian high net worth individuals? It must it I I don't know. I'm really interested to hear.
Nachula Wilson [00:23:45]:
In terms of, like, the is it different than working from others?
Craig Pollard [00:23:49]:
Just relatively. Is it easy yeah. How, how is it relative to working with Global North donors, for example?
Nachula Wilson [00:23:57]:
And so here's here's the thing is, you realize you culture is so important. Right? Every, every country so I've worked with in a heavy way with South African donors. I've tried to build networks in East Africa and Kenya, and then I've got the Western Africa experience, which is the bulk of it. And I I had to learn the culture. You know? There's a way that you address because high network individuals on average here are about 60 years old. And they are extremely busy people, and, you know, you're trying to get into their, calendar and so you learn you can't send emails and expect a call or you know? With some, you can't even have a Zoom call because that's not hot. They're 60 something years old and whereas in other parts of the world, that's they understand how to do work over Zoom. Here, you have to meet in person.
Nachula Wilson [00:24:52]:
It they need to know you as a person. You know? I've I've had, major donors invite me to their homes. Come and have lunch at home because then we can have a proper conversation, and you don't even end up talking about work. They just want to know who was the person.
Craig Pollard [00:25:08]:
Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:25:08]:
Right? I just, you know I yeah. You you do you work with Ashasi. I love Ashesi. Let me just get to know me. And then after that conversation is when you can kind of formalize the transaction. And it's okay. So here's what might be interesting for you. Can I ask you to come to campus and see this? And then you build from that.
Nachula Wilson [00:25:27]:
Over Zoom, it's it's very limited, with a lot of our high net worth individuals. I think, yeah, that's why with a lot of it, there's a lot of trouble required Yeah. To to visit with them because that's more important than, than, you know, the email outreach, the phone call outreach, the Zoom outreach. Yeah. That doesn't tend to be as effective.
Craig Pollard [00:25:45]:
But but it's interesting, isn't it? Because because that I guess, if you're thinking about these individuals, they have these communities of trust. And what you said earlier about them sort of breaking out of that sort of the traditional ways and methods and means of giving. They're breaking out of that to give to an organization. So maybe it's about them sort of just feeling uncomfortable and and and wanting to build that trust and and and and see you see you, Nachula. Can I, is Nachula someone I can trust to, to to spend my money? And then I'm I'm gonna give it away, and it's and it's fine.
Nachula Wilson [00:26:18]:
Yeah. That's exactly it. It's I need you to be part of my community. If I'm going to be giving you, you know, my money, you should be I should feel like I'm part of your community. You're part of my community. So so that's a lot of the work that we've been doing is trying to bring them in as
Craig Pollard [00:26:35]:
And so it is really bringing those communities together. Sort of you come in so Ashesi comes into their community, you're coming into their community. It's
Nachula Wilson [00:26:44]:
Very much so. Very much so.
Craig Pollard [00:26:46]:
And in that way, do do you see do you see sort of high net worth individuals, wealthy individuals in Africa sort of acting as sort of ambassadors and advocates with other donors within their community to encourage others to give?
Nachula Wilson [00:27:00]:
A lot of them a lot of the ones that you know, there's some names that everybody recognizes, the big ones. You see them signing, I think I forget which one it is. Is it the bill and Melinda Gates or something that had, the the major African donors sign on to a certain amount of money over their lifetimes contributed towards a particular process.
Craig Pollard [00:27:18]:
The giving pledge. Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:27:19]:
Exactly. The giving pledge. So that's becoming more common. So that's happened with the with that foundation. I've seen a couple more on a smaller scale calling contributions from the African high net worth individuals, putting this money together. And then they they try and encourage it because, also, it's difficult for them because everybody comes to that. The ones that are well known, there's probably about 30, 40, maybe big names, right, in African philanthropy. And all of us are knocking on their doors.
Nachula Wilson [00:27:50]:
And they they just wanna you know, I I yes. I I do wanna give, but how much can I actually do? They do actually call others into the circle. I've had a lot of our donors who say, I can hold an event for you. I can have people at my house come over for lunch. I'm gonna call x, and I'm gonna call why, and you can speak to them as well. Because they're trying to say, yes. There's me, but there are others as well, and they want others to also contribute.
Craig Pollard [00:28:13]:
Yeah. And there are a lot of I I I remember having a a conversation years ago with with Strive Masiyiwa in Zimbabwe, and he was saying that there are so many calls on his wealth that it's constant. So he has to have people between him and all of those requests. And that's why, you know, there's a foundation, and it's formalized, and all of that sort of things. But
Nachula Wilson [00:28:37]:
And then Strive is interesting because he actually put out very publicly, don't speak to me about, you know, the philanthropy. Speak to my wife and this organization and this organization.
Craig Pollard [00:28:50]:
Tsitsi. Yeah. Yeah. So so Tsitsi is is sort of leading on on that side of things. It's
Nachula Wilson [00:28:55]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Craig Pollard [00:28:56]:
But it it's it's really interesting because I think what you said earlier about working through intermediary, sort of you within your organization sort of acting as a choreographer and and and getting these people in front of these people, In some ways, you also have to sometimes work through people with on the other side, whether it's in a corporate, for example, having a champion and equipping them to be able to go into that organization and talk about you enthusiastically and and and and advocate for you as well and foundations Yep. And other organizations as well. So it sort of works on both sides.
Nachula Wilson [00:29:32]:
It it does. So so from our end, yes, it's like working through your board member and getting back to go and talk about you at an event, etcetera. Yeah. On the corporate side, sometimes it's having especially when you don't yet have the direct connection to a decision maker.
Craig Pollard [00:29:48]:
Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:29:49]:
It's making sure that the person that you do have a connection to speaks about you. There's there's one organization that I'm still trying to to do that with is, some major foundation that doesn't really do much work in alphabetical. We're trying to see if because their mandate suits us, and we're trying to see if they can extend some their funding towards the work that we do. Yeah. Their focus areas, they align with what we do. But we don't yet have access to the person at the top. So we have a couple of people that are quite junior, actually, but that love Ashesi, and they they love all what we do, and they they've been to our campus and all of that. So we're working through them, you know, to build steps towards who actually decides where their funding goes to.
Nachula Wilson [00:30:32]:
Very long term work, but very worthwhile work, especially when you you can't get direct access.
Craig Pollard [00:30:37]:
And and, yeah, it's really interesting that the sort of time scale for these partnerships as well. If you're enjoying this conversation and would like to hear other global perspectives on fundraising and leadership in the nonprofit sector, then please do subscribe using the links in the show notes. If you wanna find out more about our work, please do visit our website fundraisingradicals.com. Now back for the conversation. You you were saying Ashesi is 22 years old as well. And there's something about the the length of time that an organization is established as well and the time scale that sort of makes these things correlate and makes these partnerships possible because it's not you know, smaller organizations in an earlier stage of their life cycle can find these really difficult to build.
Nachula Wilson [00:31:28]:
Mhmm. There's definitely something to be said about that because I I realized part of what makes my work easier is the fact that Ashasi has been around for so long, and most people in Ghana, West Africa to a certain extent can speak of, I have worked with an alum from yours. You know? I saw I saw that project that was run by somebody from. Oh, you know, I know this faculty. They work at. And so they can very easily identify with us, and they they can trust us. The smaller organizations and the newer organizations have a much harder time with this because you need to show proof and, you know, so much documentation and processes and, you know, all of those things. In our case, we are fortunate enough when we build relationships to be able to say, here's this is what we do, and here's the way that we report.
Nachula Wilson [00:32:22]:
Is this okay for you? And to be honest, a lot of the times, our donors, especially those that have known us for a long time, will go will take your way of doing it. But that only comes with, we've seen for 20 years, you know, and and we know that you're okay. Yeah. A a new donor would not get that. And and so this is why the trust based giving, is important, because how many are there? How many at our size and with our, length of time of existence? Right? Most of the organizations that are doing good work are very small. And because of the the growth, right, in community service type of, work and just enabling people to start even businesses, actually. Sometimes it's not even just, social ventures. The the growth in that means that there are so many, but they're also so new that you you the only thing you can do is trust them.
Nachula Wilson [00:33:15]:
They can't present anything else to show you, you know, the value of what they're doing. Just trust that they know what they're doing.
Craig Pollard [00:33:20]:
Just my my experience in this area is just it feels like there's such a massive capacity for trust.
Nachula Wilson [00:33:26]:
Mhmm.
Craig Pollard [00:33:27]:
A massive openness to taking risks on smaller organizations and and sort of, you know, entrepreneurship and people willing to put is that is that the sense that you get as well?
Nachula Wilson [00:33:41]:
It should be that way. Right? Because it makes sense, especially with the smaller organizations. It's it's it's Yeah. It's the smaller sizes of of funding. If you give and you you know, it's a mistake and it doesn't work out, how much are you actually losing? It's not very much. So it makes sense. It makes logical sense that those ones should get more. Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:34:02]:
Unfortunately, that's not the reality. Okay. Unfortunately, not. Even with the trust based giving, it's big names that have been around for a long time that received the trust.
Craig Pollard [00:34:12]:
Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:34:12]:
So it's
Craig Pollard [00:34:13]:
The big, the big chunks of cash.
Nachula Wilson [00:34:15]:
It's the same thing and the same problem I've I've I've found with entrepreneurs in general in Africa. There are very many, and all of them are looking for funding, And all of them are running what I think are amazing, you know, I they're putting together amazing ideas. This could turn into something great. They just need that middle push of funding to help them along. You have many, many VCs and private equity firms and even the banks waiting to see those businesses go to 5 years of operations, have a $1,000,000 worth of revenue a year before they put money in. Without the initial funding, they may not get there.
Craig Pollard [00:34:52]:
But the but the thing is of many of them seem to be funded from overseas remittances and from family members and and small amounts of money that they gather from friends. And and this is
Nachula Wilson [00:35:02]:
You know, that that's that's the funny thing is I literally went and looked up the the data and numbers on how much money goes to Africa through donations from the west, you know, the more formalized philanthropy, versus remittances from Africans back to their homes. It's a much larger chunk of money that goes from Africans giving back to where they come from without expecting anything in return. Right? Without asking for
Craig Pollard [00:35:31]:
It's I think it's 70%. Exactly.
Nachula Wilson [00:35:33]:
It's it's something like that.
Craig Pollard [00:35:34]:
Is it 70% of capital flows, private capital flows into Africa are from individuals to family members and communities? 20% is overseas development assistance. And I think is it 10% that is sort of philanthropy donations, etcetera?
Nachula Wilson [00:35:52]:
Direct philanthropy. Yes. The philanthropy is a very small portion. Yeah. And then the the overseas But it's so loud. Exactly. The the the overseas, development, funding, I think, is even louder than philanthropy. Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:36:07]:
And yet, they don't even for the most part, they don't give directly to organizations. They go through governments, and then it comes down. And we a lot of African governments, we don't know, you know, how much work that's actually doing.
Craig Pollard [00:36:20]:
Well, a lot of it a lot of it is actually held
Nachula Wilson [00:36:22]:
Yes.
Craig Pollard [00:36:23]:
In the countries and paying for staff in the countries. I think, you know, there's recent articles about 90% of some funding staying in the United States even though it's labeled as overseas development assistance. So it's Okay.
Nachula Wilson [00:36:36]:
And that's one of those sensitive topics that nobody wants to talk about.
Craig Pollard [00:36:40]:
Well, that's yeah. It's I I don't even know where to start with that. It's so dishonest. It's so
Nachula Wilson [00:36:47]:
It's it's disheartening. Yeah.
Craig Pollard [00:36:49]:
It's so asymptomatic of a deeply broken system. But I'm really interested in in what you said about just just the volume, the the the loudness of these donations coming from overseas relative to the the the silent flow of vast amount of cash and remittances into Africa from diaspora members. Yeah. And it feels kind of kind of similar as well in terms of the the loudness of the Americanized European fundraising approach.
Nachula Wilson [00:37:23]:
Exactly.
Craig Pollard [00:37:24]:
Because that's very loud.
Nachula Wilson [00:37:25]:
And and then you wonder you you wonder why does it need to be loud? What drives that? The the Africans that are giving to Africa, I'm not saying that they're giving. This is data that's collected, not from them saying I gave last year a $1,000. No. This is from the banks that are receiving the funding and its label remittances. You know, all of the the the money transfer organizations that are doing the transfers themselves, they're not standing on, you know, on heels and going, I'm giving back to Africa. But the the non African the philanthropy that is non African tends to be very loud, and you you wonder why is it so loud. It's it's you know, you don't wanna answer for it because it's it's a difficult answer. But sometimes it's it's that what drives it may not necessarily be goodwill.
Nachula Wilson [00:38:16]:
Right? And and yeah.
Craig Pollard [00:38:17]:
White saviorism? Maybe?
Nachula Wilson [00:38:21]:
As a
Craig Pollard [00:38:25]:
fundraiser. Couldn't possibly comment. I couldn't But but this is but but but there is a sense of that there isn't that saviorism when it comes to contributing within your own community. And and and this idea within fundraising, sort of we've what you mentioned about capitalism earlier, this idea that we need external sources of funding to do the work within our own community. And it it's sort of that model doesn't really feel relevant Yeah. When you think about it in this context, because this is being funded, the work, the development, the progress, the is being funded within the communities and from the commune, the broader community.
Nachula Wilson [00:39:14]:
That's something that I've always had trouble with is especially, you've mentioned my background, and and my background is is money is accounting Yeah. Finance and
Craig Pollard [00:39:27]:
We were we were both auditors. Right? Yes. At one point in our lives in the distant future in the distant past.
Nachula Wilson [00:39:33]:
Yeah. And and the idea of free money, it doesn't exist, right, in in finance. It doesn't exist. They there's always a price for something. There's always a cost of doing whatever you're doing. Free money that's just given. It doesn't quite exist. And so for me, it's a mental to say maybe when you receive within your community, I think it's different.
Nachula Wilson [00:39:54]:
Right? It's it's benefits me as the community give up. Right? I see others the same as me. They they are the same as me, and I want them to be better. They're part of my community. The one that comes from outside in. I I once had a conversation with one of our board members about, you know, how can we grow to the point that we we become much more self reliant even in our philanthropy? Because then our mindset, you know, the the giver and the and the receiver are working together within the same community towards something that works for both of them. They experience the results of this this this donation. Right? And he said, you know, other regions have grown we we can't say we won't take aid.
Nachula Wilson [00:40:39]:
Other regions have grown based on taking aid, and and he said, see it as there's a lot of money that and money resources, etcetera, that gets taken to build the wealth that then gives you that aid. There is no other way you're getting that money back. And so if it's the only way you're gonna get some kind of return for what has been taken away, then that's what we're gonna take it. We're gonna use that and we're going to build. So I don't know that I agree with him a 100%. But yeah. It's such a difficult Yeah.
Craig Pollard [00:41:11]:
I mean, then you're talking reparations and loss and damage and and and all of this sort of incredibly huge political issues about, you know Exactly. Centuries of extraction versus sort of a tiny, tiny income.
Nachula Wilson [00:41:27]:
Exactly. And and you know what what sometimes we we even try to equate is so some some governments charge quite a lot of money in the west for processing of visas, for ex exams that you have to write in order to go and study in the west, etcetera. All of that money is collected from Africa, from Africans. Right? Yes. It's service fee, it's service charge, etcetera. But then sometimes it's almost as if you take away, and then you come and give it back. You're not actually giving for free. It's it's it's been raised out of the same environment from which it is being given.
Nachula Wilson [00:42:02]:
Controversial, but, you know, not everybody likes to talk about it, but this is the reality. Yeah.
Craig Pollard [00:42:07]:
Well but I think increasingly recognized. I think there are more and more voices questioning the sort of deep colonial legacies of and colonial foundations of of wealth accumulation, and and the role of sort of as it's labeled sort of big philanthropy in in maintaining and, and protecting
Nachula Wilson [00:42:30]:
Yes.
Craig Pollard [00:42:31]:
Legacies as well that and and sort of maintaining a deeply damaging status quo.
Nachula Wilson [00:42:35]:
Exactly. I I actually had, at some point, because of all of this, worrying about we receive so much money, okay, it's a lot of money, and then kind of going, okay. So what has it done for us? We've been receiving in Africa 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 over several years of donor funding to support all kinds of initiatives and everything. What has that money done? Are we better off today than if we had not received this funding? It's it's maybe rhetorical, but it's something to think about. To what extent is especially with the model that has been on before the trust based giving. We give you money, but we expect you to do x to do y, especially when it comes to governments. Right? We've given you funding, but we want you to Yeah. To then you have to do this this way.
Nachula Wilson [00:43:25]:
Your inflation levels have to be kept at this level. You know, your your interest rates should be here. Yeah. It'll kill your economy. But this is what we want you to do because we're giving you money. Right? So so it's how has that even helped Africa in any way, or is it contributing to a problem, to a problem that existed? It doesn't actually want to fix the problem. It wants it to be maintained that way. Mhmm.
Nachula Wilson [00:43:49]:
That's the the Dambisa Moyo view of of end.
Craig Pollard [00:43:52]:
Yeah. And it's it's but but and but fundraising, I think because it's it feels like it's at the nexus of this, of all of these global issues in terms of the transfer and and negotiation of wealth and conversations about social impact, social justice, climate justice, it it feels like sometimes we're in a a really challenging, complex politically place. And squaring that with sort of targets and, you know, versus, you know, the the big picture right thing to do can be an uneasy, complex, uncomfortable place to be as a fundraiser.
Nachula Wilson [00:44:33]:
It it it is very uncomfortable as especially like I said, my background, I believe in in profit making, not in the capitalist. I think that capitalism has gone a bit too far. There there there should be caps, and there should be limits on on how far it goes. There should be controls. But I I believe that value needs to be created, and then somebody should pay for that value and benefit from the it's like a a a cycle. Money that isn't accounted for in that sense, I I think I don't know. It it just doesn't seem to fit the model. So for me, in a lot of ways, I would like for organizations that receive funding to have plans for, in the long term, how do we become sustainable without this external funding? How do we create value for our communities that can be sustained, can be paid for? Our community can see the value, and we can find a model that makes it so everything we take and sow back into the community comes from the community.
Nachula Wilson [00:45:32]:
Right? And I I think that's, for me, that's a mindset that we all need to have is moving towards not needing to be funded by donations. Because philanthropy is very there are a lot of causes in this world, but the only ones that receive it, receive money are those that, you know, they they give you the the happy feels. Yeah. Right? Because who decides how do we decide what to give towards? If if I'm a donor Yeah. I go, oh, you know, maybe whatever comes to me on TV the most. Oh, how how terrible for these people. I'm going to give this much money towards them. But there are so many other causes that are so important that never get the airtime that they need.
Nachula Wilson [00:46:13]:
Right? So so it's very skewed towards whatever is the most popular, whatever is the most visible thing in that moment. In fact, that that distorts a picture of the need. The needs are are very clear, and they are mini. But what receives is what is talking the most, and I think that that's unfair. That's not a way to build societies.
Craig Pollard [00:46:33]:
As as an alternative, though, if you're if you're giving within your community, that's kind of the opposite of that. It's it's you understand Yeah. The complexity, the needs. It's not about the stuff that's right there in front of your face. It it's you understand how all of these different mechanisms, how things link together, and and what is important.
Nachula Wilson [00:46:54]:
It's true. I think that when you give within your community, you also, in a sense, it's it's more than happy fields. Right? It's so I give to somebody that works for me. And, you know, here's money. You you lost your mom. Here, go and deal with the funeral and come back. I have helped that person, and I benefit because then he's a more engaged worker.
Craig Pollard [00:47:17]:
Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:47:18]:
He's happier to be working for me. You know? So I'm benefiting from quantity service by taking care of certain things that that the government may not be taking care of. Right? So it it's there there is within the community, there is a cycle.
Craig Pollard [00:47:31]:
Yeah. And I guess there's there's a wealth in that as well. Right? There's a there's a self sustaining wealth in that. You said something really early on in the conversation I wrote down, and you you said, who is an African donor? And it's really interesting because I think just in your journey over the last sort of 4 years with with Ashesi, has your idea of what a donor looks like, who can be a donor, Has that changed? Has that evolved? And in what ways?
Nachula Wilson [00:48:04]:
Yeah. And it's a little bit sad for Jesse because because it's it's changed from high net worth individuals, those that have a lot, that are very visibly rich. You know? Those are the ones we're counting as donors. To reading about different models of giving and, you know, recollecting and looking at my own approach and other people's approaches that are within my network and realizing, in a lot of ways, all of us are donors and all of us that have capacity because, you know, they'll tell you that there's something called the black tax. I don't know if you've heard of that, where when a a black person gets to a certain level of wealth, you're taxed for it because you're surrounded by others that haven't attained that. So you're constantly giving. So it's gone from, I think, that these very, very visible reach
Craig Pollard [00:48:54]:
And the duty to lift other people around you as well and bring people with you is enormous as well.
Nachula Wilson [00:48:59]:
Exactly. And and that's that's it. You know, we call it the black tax. It sounds negative. But when you when you put it that way, that's what it is, is we recognize there's a duty. And, like I said, this is why Patrick's, story is so compelling. Patrick, our founder, because he was happy, and he he could have stayed at the US and just been rich. But he felt the duty Yeah.
Nachula Wilson [00:49:22]:
To come back and lift others. And I find that we may not shout about it. It may not be in a very big way, but a lot of us in Africa, a lot of us that are working, that have big families, we own our donors. We own our philanthropic because we're all giving to lift others that are around us.
Craig Pollard [00:49:39]:
Such a yeah. I I just think it's a it's a really wonderful illustration turning the sort of the the the dominant view of of of what a donor is and what philanthropy is completely on its head. And it's sort of remembering that all of this isn't you. It's it's it's a natural part of being human. And maybe
Nachula Wilson [00:50:03]:
It is.
Craig Pollard [00:50:05]:
Some of these places where fundraising is more formalized is have have lost some of that.
Nachula Wilson [00:50:10]:
It is human. I I I think there are societies around the world that have figured out how to make it so that everyone has enough at a certain level. Right? But even with those, I have more. It's human to go. Why only me? I want others to also be like me. Right? That's I think it's a human trait, and, yes, this is one of the things that the problems I have with capitalism is that it creates a machine that loses sight of that. And that seeks because capitalism is as much as I can take. Right? I'm I'm gonna give you a product.
Nachula Wilson [00:50:44]:
It's gonna be a great one, but I will charge you the most that I can for it. I'm not gonna charge you the amount that makes it so I can live and and have a good life. I'm going to charge you the most I can out of it. That's, in a lot of ways, that's what capitalism has become. And, yes, the product is great. Yes. You know. But there is no need for for the charge to be so hyper.
Nachula Wilson [00:51:05]:
It's what can I get out of this? Right? And it's distorted. Yeah. I think it's distorted.
Craig Pollard [00:51:10]:
It it I just I'm just fascinated by this conversation. I feel like we could go off in so many other tangents.
Nachula Wilson [00:51:18]:
We've gone into so many things. Yes.
Craig Pollard [00:51:22]:
It's great though, but I I love I love having being able for us being able to have really honest and open conversations about the about about how you know, creating maybe space for different realities and and and different experiences of fundraising and different expertise is that that are as important. Not you know, they're they're quiet, but not as loud as the as the dominant ideas, but it's it's just wonderful to hear and have this have this conversation with you, Nachella.
Nachula Wilson [00:51:56]:
They're so necessary. So necessary. There's a a body in South Africa now. I forget what it stands for, but it's called KAPSI. There's a a, I think it's at the Wits, Wits University, Witswatersrand, Wits. I forget how to pronounce it.
Craig Pollard [00:52:10]:
That's it.
Nachula Wilson [00:52:10]:
Yeah. Kapsi is is working now to try and connect all of these stories of the nature of philanthropy in Africa. And they have researchers from different parts of the continent. They're supporting it. They're funding it. The research that says, okay. How does it exist in your community? Right? So that we can have varied views, and we can we can kind of disengage ourselves from what we've borrowed. We, in Africa, unfortunately, we have a tendency to borrow to borrow without question.
Nachula Wilson [00:52:39]:
So it's important that we know our own history of philanthropy, our own structure of philanthropy, and raise it up so that we don't need to borrow. We can see what we have and make what is coming from outside fit what our model is.
Craig Pollard [00:52:53]:
But it's not you mentioned history though because there there's a very skewed history of of philanthropy has been written externally.
Nachula Wilson [00:53:03]:
Yeah.
Craig Pollard [00:53:03]:
Right? About and the and the interaction of charity in Africa. You know, I arrived yesterday with Zena Badawi's, an African history of Africa. And it's just that these these this is really important because it sort of it it helps to to sort of reshape and and and to and to give voice to the actual foundations of philanthropy and and giving and and social impact and change within African societies.
Nachula Wilson [00:53:35]:
Yep. It is so important, and it it extends beyond philanthropy. It's as simple as what we watch on television. Right? A lot of our television is Netflix and, you know, maybe DSTV, but even DSTV is an African company, but they import, I'm gonna say, 98% of the content in a lot of ways. And I I had my daughter watch there's a a new cartoon, Newish, on Netflix. That's that's Zambian. It's based in Zambia. It it uses Zambian words sometimes.
Nachula Wilson [00:54:08]:
Just the culture is just very local. And she she loved it so much. She stopped watching one of the cartoons that she normally does, and she watched this one. And she would repeat what they were saying with pride because she knows she's Zambian, and she can appreciate that this represents her. You know? It's important in every sphere.
Craig Pollard [00:54:26]:
Yeah. It's, that, yeah, that representation and that perspective. And, you know, that's sort of what we're trying to do here, I guess, in in a in a small way is create the space for for really and and and, I think, enrich the conversation around fundraising, what fundraising is, and and and different perspectives on fundraising.
Nachula Wilson [00:54:50]:
Yeah. So important. It is. It is. And and you're doing great work because there is no platform. It's important to have these conversations. It's so important, but there is no platform for them. So having spaces to talk about it, you know, write about it, and and then have conferences about it, etcetera, Just make that what everybody understands as a need that needs to something that needs to change within the way they do things.
Nachula Wilson [00:55:17]:
That creates change.
Craig Pollard [00:55:18]:
Yeah. Thank you, Nachula. So thank you for 2 evening well, 2 mornings in a row for, for your time for joining us for the panel conversation yesterday and and for this interview. I massively appreciate you just sharing so honestly and openly your views and experiences of of fundraising in Africa. It's it's brilliant. Thank you so much.
Nachula Wilson [00:55:40]:
Thank you, Craig. I've enjoyed myself. This has been so good.
Craig Pollard [00:55:43]:
Thank you so much. Thanks again to Nachula for sharing her views on funding, equity, power dynamics, and for bringing what feels like a deep and vital reflection on what fundraising is in the African context, How it fits and doesn't with community involved donors in Africa, and how as fundraisers we find ourselves of some of the world's most vexing and complex dynamics of power, equity and justice. As always, if you want to find out more about us and our work, please do visit fundraisingradicals.com. And if you have been inspired by or any of our other guests, please do subscribe on your preferred podcast platform, and leave us a review so we can grow our reach and impact. But for now, thanks again for listening, for joining our exploration of global fundraising, and we'll see you back here soon for the next episode of the Fundraising Radicals podcast.
